Agreement reached on North Korea nukes

Well Roxy, that qualifies as highest level of convoluted logic I've seen in some time. When old GW does finally seen to get something right, your blind hatred refuses too allow you to give credit where credit is due!
Its a shame that you diversity thinkers are so CLOSED MINDED!!!
Stupid a$$ Demoers!

They will always attack it's part of the Liberal Gene Pool.

robert...I believe it was GW who decided to attack...not the liberals. Again, I find the post you are referring to to be a fair assessment of the facts. If you don't. please point out the factual errors and leave out the name-calling. The last line in the post regarding GOP'ers was not called for either.

Thank u, Kevin.

And the last line of my Post, referred to our GOP Administration and John McSame = Fair Game in the Newsvine Code of Honor.

And Wildbill-69, "old GW finally got it right" after he doubled our multi-Trillion dollar deficit and Ruined our Economy.
But let's not lay all of the Blame on GWBush, - let's not forget all the GOP Lawmakers like John McCain, who voted for all of Bush's policies over 98% of the time.

Well Roxy. I don't believe Old GW "doubled our multi-Trillion dollar deficit and ruin our economy". I'm not sure which country you live in, but here in the states CONGRESS is the only branch of government allowed by the Constitution to SPEND money. Now if you want to blame that idiot Hastert, I'm on you side. But as President you can only sign or veto.
Now i agree with you that he could have used the veto a lot more than the one or two times he has, but that also fits into your liberal way of thinking that all problems are solved by throwing money at them. So you should be one happy young lady with GW.
You've had seventeen months with Miss Nancy and the Dem's promise machine. HOW IS IT WORKING??? Now along comes the ultimate USED CAR SALESMAN making a bunch more promises.
One last thing, for all you people who think the only rich people in Washington are Republicans. Do a search on WEALTH IN CONGRESS and find out who in Washington REALLY has the money. It may start you thinking for yourself, rather than the media and moneon doing your thinking.

Wildbill-69, as always, you GOP love to gloss over the Simple Fact, that if it was not for the GOP Admin's illegal grab for Iraq's oil, then we would not be now Stuck spending tax payers' Trillions getting poured into the Black Hole that is Iraq. You know, we've been spending between 3 and 10 BILLION dollars Each week, for the last Six years in Iraq???

And what do you want Congress to do? Cut off funding for our troops after Cheney/Bush shoved them into Iraq, so that Halliburton, Hunt Oil Company of TEXAS (imagine that) and their close friends in the White House can get filthy rich from the proceeds of drilling Iraq's oil.

Remember, Saddam used to give Iraq's oil contracts to Russia , France, China etc = everyone but Bush and his friends.

So yes, it Is the GOP who ruined our economy. While at the highest level of Power, enriching themselves and their Corporate Buddies.

Now try to IMAGINE what Congress and a Democratic president could be doing to Stimulate our economy if we still had those Trillions that were wasted in Iraq???

Everyone can see that, except you.

Lack of diplomacy? The gulf war ended on 2/28/91 and between that time and 3/20/2003 there was all kinds of diplomacy. The UN had (i think, 17) United Nations Continuing Resolutions on why Saddam wouldn't comply with the agreements made that ended the Gulf War. It started with 686 on 3/2/91 and continued through 1441 on 11/8/2002. This doesn't take into all the behind the scenes by the Bush senior/ Clinton/ and GW's adminstration's. I don't know how much more diplomacy you want for one guy who refuses to live up to what saved him from having his $ss blown off in 91. Now if we had left things in the hands of the UN, Saddam would still be there. Wether that would be good or bad is up to how you think about the situation, but the UN is a total waste of time if you want something accomplished. If Saddam had a brain, he would have played the UN's game and be alive today and sitting in one of his palaces. So in a way, he caused his death by being hard headed. If by FIRM OPINIONS about certain things makes one "closed minded", then by your definition, guilty as charged. But by MY definition, "closed minded" is someone who believes in NOTHING. They believe in what's popular, something that doesn't put them out on that limb. Theyre safe IN the crowd.

You have it backwards. Clinton and his crew relied on individual talks - they failed. It was Bush who determined the need for 6 party talks. He knew that it was China who could apply the pressure. His relationship with China is far better than Clinton ever had.

What was he, too chicken to pull the trigger?? To be credible, the other side must believe you; they need to FEAR you. Anyone in the world knows that Bush could and would fly a missle in their bedroom window tonight if he thought it necessary. That is power. That's what being Commander and Chief means. That's what the whole philosophy of being willing to make a pre-emptive strike means.

That's why McCain is so much stronger as a Commander and Chief than Obama, who would be led around like a little puppy dog by the likes of Hugo Chavez.

Like Bill Clinton, Bush didn't take out the Reactor EITHER, because everyone knows that N. Korea has Tens of Thousands of Artillery aimed at Seoul, the South Korean capital.

Therefore, a counter-strike by the angered North against Seoul, would easily result in tens of thousands of South Korean deaths and casualties.

It was Diplomacy that eventually won the day, which Bush (and McCain and Hillary, going by their ridicule of Obama) originally Opposed, but that Barack always said was needed even with our most dangerous enemies. It was Diplomacy that eventually made the N. Koreans take out their own Reactor, in the final year of GWBush's presidency.

And if the North was as afraid of GWB as some ppl try to claim (Peter17), then they would not have waited thru Bush's 2 terms until he only has a few months left in Office.

Please put on your Thinking Caps, people.

Bush realized that the key was China who needs a stable economy around the world in order for their economy to continue to expand at it's current rate by avoiding the disruption that a hot war in Korea would bring. It was China that explained the facts of life to N. Korea.

Everyone knows that China is the Key. But China itself was reluctant in the past to pressure N. Korea, it's Close Ally, because back then under Clinton and most of Bush's presidency, N. Korea was mostly just all talk and bluff.

China didn't seriously start to pressure N. Korea until after the N. Koreans started flipping GWBush the Finger by exploding actual Nukes.

Same way China is today refusing to Pressure Sudan for example, thus blocking any effective action against Sudan in the Security Council. BUT, if Sudan suddenly raised the stakes by testing actual nukes, rest assured China would change course and pile on the pressure.
Because it's in China's interest to continue trading with the West and growing their economy. And avoid a destructive war with the West.

Remember we fought China once before, when we got dragged in during military action with N. Korea, and our troops were sent packing and retreating back south into South Korea, back in the 1950s.

So all this also constrained Clinton and Bush, because if we had launched a full-scale invasion of N. Korea, it could again draw in China, with their massive potential ground army of tens of Millions of troops. China, N. Korea's ally, is also much stronger now, with ICBMs and hundreds of Hydrogen Bombs.

So diplomacy was always the best option, and China always held the key.

Also remember that even a limited conventional strike against N. Korean targets, can trigger the unpredictable North Koreans to destroy Seoul in an hour, from their massive # of conventional artillery.

No sep 482716, you are Missing the Point. The Clinton and Bush Admins, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, have to look at the possible Endgame of airstrikes against North Korea.

The most likely scenario = We destrioy N. Korea's reactor. = N. Korean lives are Invariably lost = N. Korea is Enraged = N. Korea counterstrikes with their own air strike against Seoul, which is just across the border, and also against well-mapped out U.S. military troops (about 30,000 i think, not sure i remember how many we have there, but it's ALOT) stationed along the DMZ. By employing a Massive artillery bombardment of Seoul and U.S. troop positions along the border.

And then what? Several thousand South Koreans and hundreds, if not a few thousand American troops DEAD. What's next? For what's next, refer to what happened in the 1950s hot war against N. Korea and what happened after China entered to support N. Korea.

Even if we kept it all conventional, the results would still be horrendous, including for us and the now much more inter-connected global economy.

There is possible endgames after an aerial strike against the North, and our joint chiefs have to anticipate the Endgame. 6 years ago, that's what General Colin Powell did when he warned Cheney, Bush and Rumsfeld not to be so hasty to attack Iraq. But the GOP did not listen, and we all now how that turned out. And trust me, N. Korea has a 2 million man army, and even without China's help, they will waste South Korea before we could ever land in enough troops to save what's left of S. Korea, after the North artillery Seoul into smithereens.

And where would we get the ground troops if the likely endgame of attcking the North, played out??? Our armies are already Stuck in Iraq (where they shouldn't have been) and in Afghanistan (where they should be) Look at the endgame of attacking the North, and of what retaliatory steps the North will take, ok.
And the North also knows that China will AGAIN halt any attempt to defeat the N. Koreans with conventional western ground forces.

Ok, i'm not sure i get what u are trying to say, Because, u are basically agreeing with what i said.

The South, as u said, is naturally adverse to the U.S. angering the North with air-strikes, because Seoul knows that before we could eliminate the North's tens of thousands of artillery pieces, that the North will LEVEL Seoul - as u already said.

And the North is unlikely to attack 1st, everyone knows, because they know that American retaliation would be devastating, even as much as how Pyongyang would devastate the Seoul.

And we both realize that what Kim was playing at, was antagonizing the USA into giving him aid, which the North desperately needs because of their "the Army First Policy" which diverts most of their resources towards the army, which results in frequent starvation among the N. Korean populace. And their extant ruined economy.

However, earlier, i'm seeing comments where ppl are blogging that the North capitulated because Bush had a wiser , tougher policy towards them, and that it was a success for Bush.

When the opposite is the case = it is N. Korea which has won this chess game and gotten the USA to capitulate and given the North aid and fuel resources.
Which is what N. Korea was after, all along.

In other words, the North is going to get Welfare from us, plus get to keep the bombs/plutonium that they have already produced and Hidden.
Sure they might declare and give up some.
But who knows how much they actually have to begin with?

Heck, knowing Kim, i can bet they probably have a new underground reactor somewhere , hidden , and producing even more plutonium.

I also forgot to add, that Bush dropped the ball big time, when for most of the years he was in Power, he refused to speak to the North.

Because the only thing that accomplished was to allow and give N. Korea breathing space and time, to aggressively test and perfect their missiles and perfect making an atomic bomb.

Where if Bush had engaged them aggressively in the beginning diplomatically then the N. Koreans would not have conducted so many missile tests, and unlikely would have reached so far in their atomic program.
So the Bush Admin earlier long-standing policy of isolating N. Korea, so as to get results, was a collossal failure.
In the end, the Bush Admin had to return to the negotiating table. (Because as everyone knows, the military option against N. Korea, was never a realistic option.)

Iraq was a different scenario, but we already had Iraq contained on the cheap, before our Rash decision to invade. Aggressive diplomacy was the better option

All's well that ends well in Iraq???

Iraqi North = Kurdistan, is independent but in name only, with competing Ministers with the Central Government in Baghdad.
Example, Bush's Buddies Hunt Oil of Texas signed a lucrative oil deal with the Iraqi Kurdish Government, and today is drilling up oil there . A deal that the Iraqi central government condemns and does not condone.

The Sunni militias in the center, who used to kill our troops, but who for now, are working with us, remain mortal enemies of the Shia central government, and the shia militias of the South. Hence, Iraq is PERFECTLY poised for a 3-way Civil War and power grab the moment we pull out.

Which is what Colin Powell foresaw as the likely Endgame of invading Iraq.

And N. Korea will ALWAYS engage in clandestine weapons program.
So the best we can do, is not have them rapidly perfecting missiles that can eventually reach our west coast, nor have them testing and perfecting their nukes, which is exactly what Bush's initial policy of not engaging them diplomatically did.

So in that respect, Bush's initial policy, was a colossal failure. At least N. Korea wasn't actively testing and improving atomic bombs under Clinton!

And as i said before, whether one on one, or 3 party or 6 party or 20 party talks, China always was the nation that was the Key to reigning in N. Korea. Because without China's support, the regime Will collapse.

You also earlier mentioned that South Korea can hold it's own against the North. But you failed to foresee that any South Korean or American conventional ground war against the N. Koreans, is doomed, for the simple fact, that China will always intervene AGAIN to save the N. Korean army and regime.

China that can easily raise, in the space of a few weeks, an unheard of army of hundreds of millions of ground troops. An army that is potentially larger than the Entire population of the United States.
(For biblical reference, go to Revelation and the 200 million man army of the Kings of the EAST, who marches WEST, to destroy a third of mankind along with the West's armies)

How many nations on earth can field an army of 200 million men???
Answer = only 2 = India and China. And of the two, China is MUCH more Advanced than India, with hundreds of ICMBs and hundreds of hydrogen bombs. And the ability to churn out a few thousand more in the space of a few months, if they have to fully mobilize for Total War.

So any conventional ground campaign to eliminate N. Korea, is doomed to failure, just as what occurred in the 1950s hot war that starred Us and Them.
And remember that in the 1950s, China's army was very rudimentary and ill-equipped. I doubt that's the case today.

Yep, that's the disaster of Bush not engaging N. Korea diplomatically enough, to prevent them actually testing the nukes.
Because by them actually testing the nukes, It could very easily have resulted in all those other Asian nations you named, rushing to develop and field their own nukes. Like what India and Pakistan shocked the world a few years back, in doing.

The Bush Admin and everyone, is Very Lucky, that the Korean nuke tests didn't trigger a God-Awful WMD arms race in Asia.

Anyways, I also thank you, Sep.
It's always fun to have a great debate with someone else of very high intelligence.

U could hav fooled me! I thought u had a tested IQ that qualified u for Mensa membership like i do! lol

And sorry about my earlier Posts being all over the place and seeming off Topic, but i was also answering earlier comments by others who talked as if airstrikes was a viable option in lieu of diplomacy, against N. Korea. And just pointing out to them, the possibly disastrous Endgame, of Airstrikes.

Anyways, i added you. So until we knock heads again, take care.

i will make u wear a helmet... ;)

lol